Can someone help me control parts of a Yamaha 01v96 with other MIDI equipment?

[Kristian_Johnsen]

Hi all, and thanks, Andy, for your invitation to join the forum!

Since I’m new here I suppose it’s proper etiquette for me to introduce myself: I own a local sound company in my home town in Norway and deal with just about any type of sound-related stuff from elementary school events up to name artist tours that travel through our city. We even do some small installs and servicing for selected clients. I own and operate several PA systems of different size, both with and without lights - and hire staff mainly during busy times (most times, as of late :)).

Anyway, I’m very new to digital mixers and have bought three small Yamaha digital mixers. Making the transistion to working with digital has been pretty smooth (and has made me lazy - I end up leaving the analog solutions at the warehouse more and more often…) but I’m struggling to get a grasp on the Midi stuff. I’m looking at a few wishes that i have come up with to utilze the gear I have bougth for the best possible solution for me.

I’d be very grateful if someone would be willing to help me accomplish some or all of what i have come up with!

Wish a).

• All audio is routed to one 01v96 via various inputs.
• The 01v96 is connected to a laptop running Studio Manager.
• The 01v96 is connected to a 03D via MIDI and the 03D faders (+ hopefully select+on/off) are used to control AUX+BUS masters even if the 01v96 is on layer 1-16 or 17-32.

Wish b).

• All audio is routed to one 01v96 via various inputs.
• The 01v96 is connected to a laptop running Studio Manager.
• The 01v96 is connected to a 03D via MIDI and the 03D faders (+ hopefully select+on/off) are used to control channels 17-32.
• The 01v96/O3D combo are also MIDI connected to a Behringer BCF 2000 that controls BUS masters on the faders and AUX masters on the rotaries.

Wish c).

• All audio is routed to one 01v96 via various inputs.
• The 01v96 is connected to a laptop running Studio Manager.
• The 01v96 is connected to a 03D via MIDI and the 03D faders (+ hopefully select+on/off) are used to control channels 17-32.
• The 01v96/O3D combo are also MIDI connected to a Behringer BCF 2000 that controls BUS masters on the faders and individual AUX sends on whatever channel is selected on the 01v96.

In all instances I’d love to have a solution where moving a channel fader on the 01v96, the 03D, the BCF 2000 or in Studio Manager updates the other parties as to what’s changed.

What I’m basically dreaming of here is a scalable system:

• Level 1: Just a 01v96.
• Level 2: 01v96 with laptop connection.
• Level 3: 01v96 with 03D as “faderboard”
• Level 4: 01v96 with 03D and BCF 2000.

The idea spawned from buying a dirt cheap 03D with many defective ADs but fully functioning otherwise. I’d love to set the 01v96 and the 03D side-by-side with a shelf covering everything above the faders on the 03D that the laptop or BCF could sit on - kinda like getting something that looks, feels and functions like a slightly bigger desk even if all the audio work is done inside the core 01v96. This combined with the fact that I could route the master L/R signals from the 01v96 into the 03D and get AES/EBU XLR out so send to stage makes it seem like a very cool package.

Am I really out there? ANY of this possible?

I have to admit to being a real MIDI dummy, I’m trying to search, read and learn but I feel like the MIDI menues on the desks are just Greek to me and I’m bumping my head against this barrier.

As of now I have the 01v96 fully functioning with various preamp solutions to give me 32 (40) inputs. Studio Manager connection is up and running via USB and works flawlessly. I have a second miniature laptop that can wirelessly remote control the one sitting next to the mixer, I use it to run up on stage and tweak monitors while standing next to the performer, listening.

[Andy]

Welcome, Kristian!

You’ve got a lot of ideas there, so I think it’s important you get comfortable first with how to use the MIDI functions on the consoles. The basic information is in the user manuals, but it can be confusing. Take it slow, and be ready to spend some time reading the manuals and experimenting with the consoles. Being unfamiliar with the MIDI functions on these consoles, it could take a bit of time to get the hang of it, but let me get you started.

Let’s start with something simple - just getting the O3D console to move the faders on the 01V96 console. I know this is not what you ultimately want to do, but you’ve gotta walk before you can run. Experimenting this way will give you a better understanding of how all this works.

On the Yamaha consoles, there are 3 basic types of MIDI messages that are useful to us:
There’s Program Changes which are messages that are sent when you recall a new scene.
There’s Control Changes which are messages that are configurable to send what’s called a CC MIDI message for controls (like faders, pan, mix levels, eq, etc.) when those controls are moved on the console.
There’s Parameter Changes which are messages that are not configurable but are sent whenever a control is changed on the console. They are different for every model of Yamaha console.

On some Yamaha consoles, there’s also Bulk Dump Messages, MMC messages, Note On/Off messages and so on, but they’re not of any concern to us for this project.

For what you’re looking to do, Control Changes will be what we need to work with.

Control Changes (CC) have different formats:
NRPN (Non-Registered-Parameter-Number) which is a value which is always the same (pretty much) for the same control on each console. Moving the fader on channel 1 will produce the same NRPN number on all Yamaha digital consoles.
Table which is a configurable system where you can assign most any CC value (within certain limits) for any control on the surface.

As an example, my Change Recorder program uses NRPN CC messages so that the values will be the same on any Yamaha console. They’re also pre-defined so I don’t have to set them up on each console. The problem with using the NRPN system in your case is that they will match 1 to 1 on the consoles, so if you push fader 1 on the 03D, it will move fader 1 on the 01V96. No way to change that, and from reading your wishes, that’s not really what you’re looking for. You’d like fader 1 on the 03D to affect the Aux Master or Bus Master on the 01V96.

So, then, ultimately you’ll need to look at using the Table system of CCs. For now though, let’s get MIDI set up on your two consoles.

Refer to the chapter in your manuals on “MIDI”.
Set the ports for CC Rx and Tx to be the MIDI ports, channel 1 on both consoles.
Set CC Tx and Rx to be active. Do not select “Echo”
Grab 2 MIDI cables and connect the MIDI IN on the 01V96 to the MIDI OUT on the 03D, and the MIDI OUT on the 01V96 to the MIDI IN on the 03D.

Just to make sure everything’s working, set the mode to NRPN for the CC messages.
If you’ve done it correctly, when you push a fader on the 03D, you should see the same fader move on the 01V96.

Let me know if you get that working, and we’ll continue.

[Kristian_Johnsen]

Andy.

Thank you so much for getting me started! Way cool!

When I set the consoles up like you describe I get the faders of one to control the other, and vice versa, in a one-to-one fashion up to 24 where the 03D runs out of channels.

The AUXs and BUS faders do not correspond, but the AUX3 fader on the 03D does control the masterLR fader on the 01v96.

Also, when moving ch5 fader on the 01v96, it does control ch5 on the 03D but it also makes the masterLR fader on the 03D go absolutely bananas, jumping up and down.

The channel on/off switches also correspond to eachother across the consoles, but the select switches don’t.

That’s about as much as I can gather about now.

If you have the time to guide me further, I would be very grateful!

Best regards, and thanks again!

Kristian

[Andy]

Hi there;

It’s good you had some success getting the 2 consoles to talk to each other. That’s great!
I just had a look at the 03D manual, I didn’t realize that it doesn’t support NRPN CC messages. I guess you used the TABLE mode for the CC messages?

Anyway, have a look in the manual for the CC settings where you can assign different CC messages for the various functions. It sounds like the faders match, but the Aux and Bus messages do not. Page 240 for the 03D “Control Change Assign” and page 216 for the 01V96 “Assigning Parameters to Control Changes for Real-time
Control”.

You want to change the CC table on one of the consoles (I suggest the 03D) to match the other for the Aux and Bus values.

Let me know how you make out.

[Kristian_Johnsen]

Hi again Andy.

I really appreciate you taking the time!

Regarding setting the mixer to “table”: I didn’t do so consciously, I ran a factory reset and then I just went ahead and ticked the Rx/Tx boxes and started pulling faders - I guess I lucked out!

This is how much I have been able to gather so far:

When looking at the screen on the 03D that corresponds to the one on page 240 of the 03D manual (the Control Change Assign screen) I have been able to gather that the column on the far left titled “CTL CHG” represents the faders of the 01v96. The column that says “fader” on every line allows me to decide which control of the 03D will control the fader of the 01v96. If I go to the line that says 1 = and scroll the “fader” until it says “pan” then I’m able to change the 01v96 number one fader with the “pan” control of channel 1 on the 01v96. So far, so good, it seems
Looking at the colum where every line says “channel” I can scroll so that the line says AUX1-4 or EFF send 1-2, however, when i do so, it doesn’t seem to be changing the AUXs on channel 1 of the 01v96. I either get the fader or nothing, which is OK since it’s the fader I’m looking to control.

I have scrolled my way up the column on the far left, the one titled “CTL CHG”, and have changed the numbers on the far right, which represent what fader I’m using on the 03D to control the 01v96 with. I’m OK up to 24, in other words, I can use fader number 1 on the 03D to control any fader up to 24 on the 01v96. I tried changing the value on the right hand column so that the “CTL CHG” column said 25 and the right hand column said 1, but fader number 1 on the 03D will not control fader number 25 on the 01v96 anyway. The “midi” light on the 01v96 does go on, so I’m guessing everything is transmitting just fine, I’m just using fader 1 on the 03D to talk to something on the 01v96 that I don’t know what is.

So this is how far I got today. I guess what I need is to find out what “numbers” I should set my faders to talk to so the signals end being read by the right recipients?

PS: even if I could get the AUX masters and BUS masters to talk to the 01v96 in a one-to-one fashion I still will be out of luck since the 03D only has 4 BUSes and 6 AUXs.

What I’m dreaming up right now is to use faders 1-16 of the 03D to control the AUX and BUS master faders on the 01v96. That way I will still have fully functioning channels 17-24 and AUX/BUS masters on the 03D. Here is my rather cool idea (if I may say so myself ): I’ll run SPDIF master out from the 01v96 into the 03D and feed that into two of the channels between 17 and 24. This stereo master feed can the be routed to ST OUT, BUS OUT 1-4 and AUX 1-4 on the 03D which will serve as a “master console” of sorts. This would give me AES EBU out to send to stage as well as 10 local analog outputs, all with their own output delay and EQ, leaving me ST OUT and omni 1-4 on the 01v96 as analog monitor outputs. One great benefit here would be that I don’t have to burn BUSes on the 01v96 for delays + if I do use the 01v96 BUSes for that stuff I loose the ability to use the rest of the buses for mixdown as they only feed the ST OUT and not eachother.
Lastly, MCs, DJs, get-in music, etc could be run directly into the 03D, both freeing up channels on the 01v96 and allowing me to do stuff like resyncronize with Studio Manager (which leaves the outputs silent) between bands. Pretty cool, huh?

Thanks again for all your help! Is there hope for this little project of mine?

[Andy]

Ok, so I think there’s a couple of things that need clarification.

What you want to do is match up the CC numbers between the 03D and 01V96 for parameters that you want to change.

Have a look at page 268 in the 03D manual (“Parameter to Control Change Table”) and page 293 in the 01V96 manual (“Initial Parameter to Control Change Table”).

CC #1 on the 03D listed as “FADER CHANNEL CH 1” and on the 01V96 CC #1 is listed as “FADER H CHANNEL INPUT1”

So whenever the fader on Ch1 is moved on the 03D, CC #1 is sent to the 01V96, and the 01V96 moves the Fader for Ch1. Pretty simple so far.

Go down the list and you’ll see what matches and what doesn’t. CC #1 to CC #24 all match the faders 1-24.

Then things change. For CC #25 on the 03D, that’s the ST IN fader, and on the 01V96, it’s not assigned. So when you move the Stereo IN fader on the 03D, nothing will move on the 01V96.

In looking at the 03D CC messages, I realize now that the 03D being such an old machine doesn’t really match up well with the 01V96. It doesn’t use NRPN and doesn’t have 2-byte values for things. What this means is it may not work all that well as a controller since the messages aren’t really going to match up very well. Having 2 more modern consoles from the same era and this would be much easier.

Anyway, looking now at the large differences between the 2 consoles in terms of MIDI capabilities, if you want to keep experimenting, then it’d probably be easier to change the 01V96 CC table than the 03D.

Reset the 2 consoles back to factory before continuing. We want the default CC tables to be loaded.

Now, in looking at the 03D table (page 268) we see that the Master Aux level for Aux1 is CC #28.
So, on the 01V96, scroll to CC #28. If you’ve reset the 01V96 to default, it should say “no assign”. Change the assignment to “FADER H”, “MASTER”, “AUX1” (the 3 columns).

Once you’ve changed that, try adjusting the aux1 master on the 03D and see if the aux1 master on the 01V96 changes. If you’ve done it properly, it should.

Now, if you get that to work, you were saying that you actually want the input faders on the 03D to adjust the aux masters on the 01V96?

If that’s correct, then on the 01V96, scroll to CC #1, and change the assignment to “FADER H”, “MASTER”, “AUX1”. It should cancel the CC#28 assignment.
Then scroll to CC #2, and change that assignment to “FADER H”, “MASTER”, “AUX2”.

and so on…

See how that works. As I say, there’s some incompatibilities between the 2 consoles since they are so far apart from each other in age, so this may not work as well as you’d like.

[Kristian_Johnsen]

Hi Again Andy.
Wow - I’m real psyched right now! You are the man! Thank’s for helping me all this way!
I have changed the tables so that I can control exactly the stuff I was hoping to!
I have arranged the channels so that the first layer of the 03D faders controls the following:
Faders 1-4 = 1-4 03D channels for playback, MCs, etc. These are the “best channels” with analog inserts, etc.
Faders 5-8 = Stereo return 1-4 on 01v96, no more fiddly shared return encoders!
Faders 9-16 = BUS1 - BUS8 on 01v96. Everything tracks perfectly and communication is updated either way. Now I can boost snare WHILE lowering drum group with the other hand! Too cool!!
When selecting second layer on the 03D the faders control the following:
Faders 1-8 = AUX MASTER 1 - AUX MASTER 8 on 01v96.
Faders 9-16 = AUX MASTERS and BUS MASTERS on 03D as per factory standard. These will be used to feed recording bus, delay, front fill, etc, etc with the main stereo bus signal coming from the 01v96 via SPDIF into ST IN channel on 03D.
I also assigned corresponding settings for “ON” instead of “FADER” so that everything that can be faded from the 03D can be switched on/off also. Too bad there is no way to remotely select “SEL” but I can always hit “auto channel select” on the 01v96.

To top it all off, Studio Manager works flawlessly and I can now adjust my AUX and BUS masters either from the 03D, from the 01v96, or from the touch screen I have hooked up to a laptop running Studio Manager. I have in the past remote-controlled the PC running Studio Manager via a ASUS micro-PC and I see no reason why this shouldn’t work now, also.
As soon as my 01v comes back from a long term rental I’ll try to include that in my little “Frankenstein project”: I plan to run 01v96 BUS 1-8 via ADAT and ST OUT via SPDIF from the 01v96 to the 01v. These signals can then be routed to the AUXs and BUSes of the 01v and be used at matrix outputs, essentially giving me 6 mono matrixes and 2 stereo matrixes. The 01v has 4 omni outs and 2 XLR outs but I can hook it up to a Behringer ADA 8000 I have, giving me all-XLR matrixes.
Considering what the components for this project cost me (only the computer stuff is brand new) I have bumped my little 01v96 into LS9 territory at a much lower cost. As long as the idea is for me to use this system, not visiting BEs, it seems like a very usable solution right now. The main beauty is that each mixer (although the 03D has some missing channels) can be used independently at smaller gigs.
Thank you again for helping me with this. A lot of testing remains before doing a gig with this setup, but I’m blasting down the right track now
As you know by now I’m learning as I go here, so I have a general MIDI understanding question: If I was to include other items in the “MIDI loop” with this gear. Would I want to keep going in-out-in-out. making a whole loop, or would I want to use the MIDI THRU connections?

[Andy]

That’s great news that you got it all setup and working the way you want. Well done.
Remember what I was saying about the “incompatability” between the MIDI messages from the 03D and the 01V? That has to do with the resolution of the faders. The 03D will move the faders more coarsely than you might want.

@Kristian_Johnsen

As you know by now I’m learning as I go here, so I have a general MIDI understanding question: If I was to include other items in the “MIDI loop” with this gear. Would I want to keep going in-out-in-out. making a whole loop, or would I want to use the MIDI THRU connections?

Depends what you want to hook up. What else do you want to connect?

[Kristian_Johnsen]

I tried the setup again today and I’m still psyched about how cool my little rig is!! Thanks again!

Regarding fader resolution: I’ll just have to try it out and see how I do, but the beauty of this setup is that the 01v96 itself operates exactly as if it was on it’s own, also, so if I need very fine control I can always acheive this by using the master layer of the 01v96. One big advantage I see is having a fast “grab” fader to lower an AUX feeding back, or whatever, no matter what menu or layer I’m dug into on the 01v96, and fine resolution isn’t a big deal in this situation. Also, having a really fast way to mute ALL 4 stereo FX returns in one go is a beauty:)

The last question was mostly a general one. I hear rumors about people using UDKs (right term?) to trigger programs in their lighting controller?

[Andy]

Glad it’s working for you.

When you get around to actual MIDI connections that you want to do to other products, let me know. (Start a new thread) There’s no “general” stuff with MIDI and Yamaha!