Controlling Mixes with BCF2000 MIDI controller

Software Programming for the Yamaha Consoles
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(Maybe) but I can’t see my text.- Never Mind.

Ahhhhh! White on white to start is not so bright.

This is my first post ever, anywhere, but I thought it might be a little less of a battle. I am interested in the “sends on faders” program if it uses 1023 resolution. Otherwise I will use my BCF to set aux levels. I am interested to read that NRPN data is not desk specific for Yamaha. I never managed to work out the NRPN necessary so I have been programming the BCF with desk specific Hex (the stuff that SM2 spits out), which is quite laborious, and getting nowhere with panning as Yamaha cleverly use + and - 63 which seems impossible on the BCF. The other problems with desk specific Hex are that Studio Manager does not want to pass the Hex through to the desk (so the midi patching becomes rather tasty if I want to see the metering), and the BCF has to be re-programmed for every desk that I come across. Is it possible that the NRPN part is the same as the hex I have - less the manufacturer and model code? - No it seems not.

Anyone out there know why SM2 closes but stays on as a process in windows while hogging 50% of my intel mac’s cpu and making it impossible to restart without going through the task manager?

I think that I will stop there for now as quite a few bibles have already been written on these subjects.

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Yeah, sorry about the color troubles. It seems to work ok on Firefox but not on IE. Things are still being worked on. Let me know if you still see color issues with the forum.

I am interested in the “sends on faders” program if it uses 1023 resolution.
It does.

Otherwise I will use my BCF to set aux levels. I am interested to read that NRPN data is not desk specific for Yamaha. I never managed to work out the NRPN necessary so I have been programming the BCF with desk specific Hex (the stuff that SM2 spits out), which is quite laborious, and getting nowhere with panning as Yamaha cleverly use + and - 63 which seems impossible on the BCF. The other problems with desk specific Hex are that Studio Manager does not want to pass the Hex through to the desk (so the midi patching becomes rather tasty if I want to see the metering), and the BCF has to be re-programmed for every desk that I come across.
The NRPN are the same for each Yamaha console. An easy way to read them would be to try my Change Recorder. As you change a control on the console, it will display the NRPN on the screen. Start a new thread in that forum if you need help getting that going.

Is it possible that the NRPN part is the same as the hex I have - less the manufacturer and model code? - No it seems not.
No, it’s quite different and much simpler.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you find useful information here.

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Thank you for your very prompt reply Andy. I will look for your change recorder and let you know how I get on.
David.

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A small Update. I will try to leave a total record of my experience with Studio Manager later.

I had no luck using Midiyoke pipes and Studio Manager. Once Midiox had connected my pipes SM2 started to hog 50% of both my CPU’s (Macbook Pro) and then dropped it’s midi input. Happily resolved using Maple midipipes. No need to use the Maple GUI. Midiox sees the Maple pipes and uses them correctly.

I will investigate “sends on faders” next, but I already have all the control I need from my BCF2000, and the bands can mix their monitors from multiple BCF’s on stage (IN EAR REQUIRED!!!). This allows me to do other things during rehearsals.

I then moved on to my next requirement - being able to monitor the 01v96v2 (or other desk) SOLO at my computer.

First I must explain my setup. My 01V96 is on stage and connected (along with my USB soundcard and BCF’s for the band) to a Belkin 5-port USB Hub which is connected via ethernet (wireless works too, but at short range) to my laptop. I have another BCF connected to my laptop for mixing and other control (such as fine aux tuning).

Trying to monitor at my laptop I had no luck with “Jack Control”. XP does not allow connection of one soundcard input to another soundcard output. But the problem is solved with “Audacity”. Preferences set to “software playthrough” ticked, and then the program set to input from my soundcard and output to my laptop soundcard and then put in paused record and minimalised. I had tried the separate program “software playthrough” but it Hung repeatedly.

This works with a slight delay when monitoring, which is actually helpful when trying to identify hums and buzzes and distortion.

I can play audio from my computer to my 01V96 at the same time. Playback is with micro-mini-tiny latency. The soundcard is connected analogue (for simplicity) to the 01V96 headphone socket and a couple of inputs.

This setup in XP Pro uses 18% of CPU and less than 5% of the ethernet connection when maxed, and is stable unless I pull the ethernet plug repeatedly. I can access the internet via wifi, and play videos to screen with the audio to the 01v96 without problems with the audio or the midi or the Video, but I would not recommend surfing as the audio will always go to the mixer and you might forget to mute the inputs.

In OSX the same setup works with Midipipe, but the Belkin Hub cannot access my Terratec Phase26 soundcard, so no monitoring or playback. I am looking for a card that might work. The graphic representation of SM2 is not as pretty, and OSX has some problems mixing sample rates that XP handles easily (by re-sampling everything at 48K - YUK), but the setup is extremely stable, not caring one Hoot if the ethernet connection is repeatedly broken. Reliability being key, a new soundcard I think.

I am working on foam pads for the BCF faders, as in quiet numbers or conference situations I do not dare to use the BCF unless I remember never to return the faders completely to Zero.

If Andy allows links and graphics then I will try to put together a tutorial.
It has been a long and corrugated road that could lead to heaven!

David Kent.

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That’s quite a post. Not sure I follow all you’re trying to do, especially since I don’t have a Mac.

Links and graphics are allowed in the forum, you can create an album or whatever you want.
Just start it in a new thread with an appropriate title. Love to have your contribution!

Let me know if you try the Change Recorder for getting the NRPN info…

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Thank you for the reminder Andy. Yes it would be great to move over to NRPN, as I beleive that the BCF2000 will then be able to respond to incoming messages. At the moment the BCF’s are only outputting, which is fine becaue each page remembers it’s fader positions, but if I power down then those positions are lost and any fader moved sends first a zero to the desk as at boot all faders are down, ie the channel is muted and then responds to the new fader position. Not ideal! I m not sure that NPRN will help but it will certainly mean that I don’t need to reprogram all of the BCF’s when I go to a venue which has a different Yamaha desk.

My end goal is total control of any digital desk via ethernet from my laptop, with solo monitoring, stereo playback, and stereo output recording on my laptop. The desk stays on stage, or wherever else it might be fixed in the venue (behing glass on the third balcony for example). The band control their own in ear via BCF2000’s on stage. I am nearly there. Just the stereo recording (4 Input 2 output USB soundcard required) to sort out, and moving over to NRPN, which will take a few days work!

As I have an Intel Mac I have the possibility of running under XP or OSX. XP is favorite at the moment, if I can make my setup robust enough, as XP handles multimedia extremely well, but OSX is just naturally robust (though infuriatingly opaque - it’s interesting how similar Unix is to DOS). I am determined to make the whole setup work under both operating systems.

David Kent.

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Sorry Andy - a question - I am trying SOF. Very nice! (not a good word, it’s Superb!) However, although my fader is doing as I would expect with your program, it is moving the input channel fader at the same time (ie doing what it would normally do as well). No problem if running a pure monitor desk, but a disaster if running FOH at the same time. I assume this is unavoidable, or I am being a noob?

I have just realized that it is probably because I am not using NRPN. Sorry!!!

I am using both MidiYoke drivers and Maple drivers, putting the Maple drivers in purely to keep SM2 away from the Midiyoke pipes which wreak havoc when attached to SM2 on my Macbook. SM2 to Maple. Then Maple to MidiYoke to 01V96 (Yamaha Midi Driver) under MidiOx.
David Kent

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Adding the BCF definitely complicates things.
Try connecting the BCF to the console through the MIDI ports, and use USB for SOF. That should keep them separate.

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I think you’ll be discouraged to find that NRPN will not solve this. To fix this, you need the console to spit out it’s settings when it boots up or changes scenes. Unfortunately, there’s no way to get the console to do that, so you’ll be out of luck. You can “query” the console for a specific value, but then your BCF would need to query the console every time it needs an updated value. Just so you don’t get your hopes up too high.

NRPN will help with working with multiple consoles though.

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Thank you again Andy! I am impressed with the time you manage to devote to your site.

I was not using the BCF at the same time as SOF - it was the SM2 fader that was moving both controls at the same time. I will get there eventually!

David Kent.

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Not nearly enough time, but it’s fun. :slight_smile:

I was not using the BCF at the same time as SOF - it was the SM2 fader that was moving both controls at the same time. I will get there eventually!
I understand. Try the BCF connected to the MIDI ports - I think that will fix the problem you’re having. Just enable Parameter Change T & R in the MIDI setup on the console (or CC NRPN, preferably).

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Mostly a simple progress update. Thank’s to Andy I have an 01v96 with total control over ethernet from my PC (XP Pro), 1 BCF2000 on stage with the 01v96 (I will be adding more), and one with my PC at FOH. Change recorder is talking to everything via the on-stage BCF Midi in/out plugged with midi cables to the 01v96. SM2 is talking to everything via USB Midi over ethernet. SOF is in the chain to USB midi over ethernet. And my PC is playing music to the desk, and I am listening to the 01v96 headphone output on my PC. The pc is sync-ed to the desk. Change recorder is recording all changes on all controls (SM2, the 01v96, and the BCF’s). I am now investigating WHY I have it all working before I post some diagrams.

I think that can see what is the NRPN format. At the moment I am sending sysex messages from my BCF’s that mimic SM2 output messages. I have established that the desk itself is then sending the equivalent NRPN message to my onstage BCF, but the BCF does not want to “Learn”… I am now going to look at MidiOx’s sysex log to see if I can figure it out.

I am using BCFredit by “Birdie” to program my BCF’s. If I use it’s standard NRPN setting it seems to invert the msb and lsb - err!
On the basis that I have already all the sysex I need and it ain’t broke…

My problem with SOF is resolved. I had not broken the midiyoke to desk links in MidiOx, so I had SOF in parallel and not in-line… dumb.
And I finally found the “Enable all settings” after right clicking the little midi box in the main window for the last 4 days!.. dumber.
SOF will allow me to reduce BCF page changes FOH (and therefore fader rattle), as now I only need the BCF for my main mix faders and I can do everything else on screen…

David Kent.

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:slight_smile:

Here we go! This is my kind of Manna.

It is going to take me a little longer to write the necessary docs. The attachment contains a diagram of the hard wiring for total remote control and monitoring of an 01v96, and a few screenshots of the soft Midi patching.
David Kent.

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Hello Andy,
I have gone a long way now with my project, and am trying to make it failsafe using your change recorder. I have studio manager connected directly to the desk and Change recorder recording all of the NRPN that comes out of the midi out when the desk is sent a sysex or a real control is moved.
I now have my bcf2000’s running NRPN as you suggested. They talk just fine to the desk and studio manager, but Change recorder will not record their output, which I need it to do so that I can update the BCF’s if there is a power cut or I forget to store their info at the end of the show. My laptop would keep running and I would be able to restore fader positions from change recorder. Sending them continuous updates is out of the question because of indirect midi feedback.

The only difference that I can see between the desk’s NRPN and that of the bcf’s is the message order
The desk sends - NRPN LSB - NRPN MSB - Data Entry MSB - Data Entry LSB.
The BCF sends - NRPN MSB - NRPN LSB - Data Entry MSB - Data Entry LSB.

Is there a simple way to correct this in MidiOx, or can you tell me that this should not make any difference to Change Recorder and that therefore I have some other hurdle to jump?
Also is there a limit to the data set that change recorder can store, or can it be left recording indefinitely (i.e.for a whole show)?
Thank you again for your time.
David Kent.

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Hi David;

No need to PM me with these questions, as I’d like the community to learn from your experiences. Please post your messages in the forum if you don’t mind.

Now, my software does expect to see the values in the correct order:
Status: 0xB (a CC message)
Function: 0x62 (LSB function)
Value: 0-128

Status: 0xB
Function: 0x63 (MSB function)
Value: 0-128

Status: 0xB
Function: 0x06 (MSB Value)
Value: 0-128

Status: 0xB
Function: 0x26 (LSB Value)
Value: 0-128

I do remember thinking at the time that I was writing this that Yamaha’s MSB/LSB were backwards from “MIDI standard”, but that’s the way it is.

The think about the BCF is that if it puts the messages out in reverse order, does the Yamaha recognize them in that order and work properly?
i.e. does the Yamaha console not care what order the messages come in?

If that’s the case (that the Yamaha console does not care about the order) then I can modify my program to allow out-of-order messages.
-Andy

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Hello Andy,

Yes, the Yamaha desk does not seem to care about the message order. It receives the messages from Change Recorder and the BCF’s without any problems, and accepts the interleaved sysex messages from Studio Manager at the same time, translating the sysex as backwards NRPN and sending it through midi out, which is then recorded by Change Recorder. Unfortunately the forwards NRPN from the BCF’s is not echoed to the Midi output as backwards NRPN. That would have solved my problem!
That would be fantastic if you could allow Change Recorder to ignore the message order.
Thank you again,

David Kent.

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Hello again Andy,
Obviously I would be very pleased to test a modified CR before you release it to the world, but I can only do so on an 01V96 at the moment.

OK
Here is the first edition of my unfinished tutorial.

David Kent.

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Give this version a try.
You’ll have to search your HD to find where the original Yammie.EXE is located. Over-write it with this version and see if it works with out-of-order NRPN messages.

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It’s looking good Andy, thank you very much!
I am moving a fader on a bcf with my toes as I type this, and the desk is responding and Change Recorder is recording. CPU 22-36% with sm2, a video, the internet, CR, midiox, Audacity (for monitoring) all running fine. LAN network running at 6%, with audio and midi to and from the desk, and midi to and from the BCF. I will do a soak test on it all tomorrow.
I have worked out all the necessary sysex for post boot and pre shutdown, and now I will try to write some scripts to automate a few things. Then back to finish the blog.
Thank you again,
David Kent

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No problem. Glad to help.

Oh - as far as I know the Change Recorder can record as much data as you can throw at it. The files are just XML, so I’m sure performance would start to suffer as the files get really big, in terms of loading the files, but please let me know how you make out.

Also, if you feel the program could be improved in some way to make it more useful, please let me know. No promises, but I’m always looking to improve things if they are used and useful.

Suggestions thread moved here: http://www.checkcheckonetwo.com/forum/showthread.php?1055-Change-Recorder-Issues-and-Improvements&p=5445